User:Robertinventor/sandbox

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[comments in square brackets]

In a way, I'm glad this came up now. If the mentorship goes forward, I will be asking questions like "What am I missing?" and "Do you know a conflict resolution technique that would work?" I don't anticipate getting into any conversations like this one on Wikipedia—I didn't last time—but it did occur to me to think, "When the block discussion is over, maybe Steve C would have some insight on the verb tense thing at Wikinews."

I reread my whole Wikinews talk page starting in March and some other talk pages from around the same time. You're right; that extended conversation between Gryllida, Ca2james and me is repetitive and charged. I've been trying to find ways to have more effective, cooler-headed conversations on Wikinews ever since. I will add that Gryllida has been invaluable toward that goal, both through their deliberate actions and things I noticed about G passively.

Gryllida suggested that I write essays about my experience on Wikinews. I wasn't hot on the idea at first, but I gave it a try and it turned out to be a real winner. I think I managed a few good ones. If you've got the time, I'd like you to take a look at.

During the March conversations, I found one thing that helped was finding a way to slow the conversation down. The more time there was in between posts, the cooler-headed my posts were, and usually the other participants' too. I wrote Slowdown and Downturn. Although SVTCobra is probably right that they're unenforceable, they did get me thinking.

I find that when someone makes a post addressed to me, I take it as permission to continue. And then they take my post as permission for them to continue, and so on. Here are a few of the things I've tried since the conversation in Ca2James' link:


 * Tell the other person I need a break. "I wrote up a response to your post, but I think we need to slow down, or at least I do. Okay if I respond in 12 hours instead of now?" The other party responded well.


 * I got into the habit of emphatically complimenting someone when they do something I think is good or have an idea I can sincerely get behind. It doesn't subtract but it adds.  Again, I got this idea after something Gryllida said.


 * Finding a way to end conversations: I always knew telling people to stop talking just made them angry, but the trick is to either let the other person have the last word, set them up to have the last word or say something that I don't think they'll mind being the last word.


 * I came up with a "Let's Do It Together" model of conflict resolution that's had some success. First try was with Ca2james. I always used to think he had written a lot of Wikinews articles way back and had just fallen out of it, but it turned out he never has.  When he was criticizing the way I go through review, I thought, "Hey, let's have you write a Wikinews article.  Then you'll get lots of insight into the review process.  Let's write it together!  It'll be fun!" I asked two or three times, but he never went for it, so I stopped.  I had more success last month when Pi zero initiated a conversation about source distance.  I suggested we write an essay about it together.  Pi zero decided not to but did respond positively to the skeletal essay that I started and we had a good conversation.

I had some repetitive, charged conversations at Wikipedia too. At the time, I thought we were all having fun and weren't bothering anyone. I got a real wake-up call about that at AE in 2016.

My plan for the future is if I ever notice myself going back and forth with someone else, and I feel the discussion might be getting even a little out of hand/uncivil, I'll step away from the discussion where I can, or do the things that I've tried in the past since the discussion that was referenced by you/Ca2james [This last para is as edited by Steven]

Requested transclusion
pings (add Euryalus since he is the one who did the transclusion last time)

I request that any available admin post this on the appeal page:

Response to points raised by Ca2james
[Needs intro, this is a suggestion]

[Thank Ca2james, important to help keep him in the loop and feeling appreciated]

'''Thanks for bringing these points up. They can help me to explain how I plan to do things differently.'''

[

Need to explain that
 * this is MoS and doesn't apply to initial unblock

]

'''First, these are discussions of style. They are relevant for my eventual return to MoS but not for the initial unblock. The topic areas of RSN, updating articles with new material have never lead to any conflict with me. For the RfC and 3O's, as I said, I was able to practice techniques for deescalation and conflict resolution wiht some success, amd there were no such arguments or fights during the last six months I was unblocked.'''

[

Need to explain that on Wikinews, MoS are


 * Strictly enforced
 * With a deadline
 * Good practice for MoS on Wikipedia but harder

]

'''Unlike the situation on Wikipedia, all the articles are reviewed by a small team of reviewers who will not pass them for publication until they conform to the MoS guidelines. On Wikipedia even featured articles often do not comply with all the details of MoS.

'''We also have a strict deadline, of only a few days before the news becomes "stale". Passions there often run high as the deadline approaches, if an article has not yet passed review.

'''This makes it a place where I can practice the techniques I will eventually need for my return to MoS, but one that is more highly charged, and where just leaving a conversation is not an option, if I am the drafter of an article that has to comply with the style gudelines before it is published in a couple of days.

[END OF INTRO]

[I'll give the bullet points from your draft that I think need to be included, if you shorten it]

[ ]
 * Acknowledge that the discussion was repetitive and charged
 * Been trying to find new ways forward
 * Gryllida has been invaluable
 * On Gryllida's suggestion you have done essays, here is an example

'''I reread my whole Wikinews talk page starting in March and some other talk pages from around the same time. You're right; that extended conversation between Gryllida, Ca2james and me is repetitive and charged. I've been trying to find ways to have more effective, cooler-headed conversations on Wikinews ever since. I will add that Gryllida has been invaluable toward that goal, both through their deliberate actions and things I noticed about G passively.

'''Gryllida suggested that I write essays about my experience on Wikinews. I wasn't hot on the idea at first, but I gave it a try and it turned out to be a real winner. I think I managed a few good ones. If you've got the time, I'd like you to take a look at.

[
 * Helps to slow things down
 * My posts become cooler headed and usually the other person's do too.
 * Mention Slowdown and Downturn

]

'''During the March conversations, I found one thing that helped was finding a way to slow the conversation down. The more time there was in between posts, the cooler-headed my posts were, and usually the other participants' too. I wrote Slowdown and Downturn. Although SVTCobra is probably right that they're unenforceable, they did get me thinking.

[
 * Noticed that we see each other's posts as "permission to continue"
 * Found ways to tell the other person I need a break - details
 * Complementing things I approve of
 * Found ways to end conversation - details
 * "Let's do it together" model for conflict resolution - details

]

'''I find that when someone makes a post addressed to me, I take it as permission to continue. And then they take my post as permission for them to continue, and so on. Here are a few of the things I've tried since the conversation in Ca2James' link:


 * '''Tell the other person I need a break. "I wrote up a response to your post, but I think we need to slow down, or at least I do. Okay if I respond in 12 hours instead of now?" The other party responded well.


 * '''I got into the habit of emphatically complimenting someone when they do something I think is good or have an idea I can sincerely get behind. It doesn't subtract but it adds.  Again, I got this idea after something Gryllida said.


 * '''Finding a way to end conversations: I always knew telling people to stop talking just made them angry, but the trick is to either let the other person have the last word, set them up to have the last word or say something that I don't think they'll mind being the last word.


 * '''I came up with a "Let's Do It Together" model of conflict resolution that's had some success. First try was with Ca2james. I always used to think he had written a lot of Wikinews articles way back and had just fallen out of it, but it turned out he never has.  When he was criticizing the way I go through review, I thought, "Hey, let's have you write a Wikinews article.  Then you'll get lots of insight into the review process.  Let's write it together!  It'll be fun!" I asked two or three times, but he never went for it, so I stopped.  I had more success last month when Pi zero initiated a conversation about source distance.  I suggested we write an essay about it together.  Pi zero decided not to but did respond positively to the skeletal essay that I started and we had a good conversation.

[

Aside here. Not sure if you are doing this yet. I think you also need to thank the other person for sincere and kind efforts to help even if you think it can't actually work, and to do them the courtesy of offering to give it thought. This also helps create natural breaks in heated conversations.

E.g. "Thanks Gryllida for your offer to help by editing Wikinews articles for me on MoS, I need to give that some thought and will get back to you"

Then you can come back and say you don't think it will work but may have a counter proposal on your part as a result of thinking over her idea

If you think this is a good idea going forwards it might be a useful thing to add. Just a suggestion

]

[Original intro to Steven has useful points about mentorship to add

Would ask mentor:


 * "What am I missing?"
 * "Do you know a conflict resolution technique that would work?"

]

'''If the mentorship goes forward, I will be asking questions like "What am I missing?" and "Do you know a conflict resolution technique that would work?"

CONCLUSION AS SUGGESTED BY STEVEN
[

This is perfect, not sure I need to bullet point it but this is what a reader will pick up from it:


 * You have a plan
 * It involves first noticing if you are going back and forth, and then noticing if it is getting out of hand of uncivil
 * You will step away if you can
 * If you can't you will do the things you tried before (with success) since the discussion

] '''My plan for the future is if I ever notice myself going back and forth with someone else, and I feel the discussion might be getting even a little out of hand/uncivil, I'll step away from the discussion where I can, or do the things that I've tried in the past since the discussion that was referenced by you/Ca2james

Talk page access
'''I'd like to draw the community's attention to my secondary request: Even if consensus toward lifting the block fails to form, please consider restoring talk page access. The admin who revoked it said he would consider restoring access after three months, but then he quit Wikipedia and no one else was authorized to do it.

Unblock
As another technical matter, the last AE decision for the topic ban appeal was for a one month block only.

The indef block was a DS sanction by just one admin, NeilN, who has now left the project

The block statement said nothing about what was needed to lift the block except to say that I can appeal via Arbcom

Short draft
[COMMENT ON YOUR SHORT DRAFT]

Yes, things got a little heated last March on Wikinews, around the time some of our review team changed the way they were interpreting one of the review criteria.

[As Roy said * remove "a little"]

[
 * Remove the bit about the review team changing interpretations of review criteria

It is your own interpretation that Pi Zero changed the review criteria on whether journalists should use the historic present in Wikinews articles.

She might not agree that she did this.I think it is possible she only just noticed that you did that. You don't use it much, not in the articles we did together

]

[

This is all fine as a short version but think longer is better.

Why not try sending Steven a long version with all the bullets, and this short version and ask him which you should post.

]

Since then, I've made an active project of finding ways to minimize conflict on its talk pages. At the suggestion of Wikinewsie Gryllida, I started writing essays about my experience on Wikinews. (Particularly proud of this one [Suggestions].) I drafted two conflict resolution essays. They never got past draft, but they gave me some good ideas. I found the trick is to get everything to slow down. If I find myself in a two of three-person conversation that has gone heated but is serving the needs of the project, just writing up and an answer and then waiting 12 hours before posting it slows everything down. Then heads are cooler and responses are more calm, productive or even artistic.

If the conversation's heated and not serving the needs of the project, then the trick is to get it to end: Either let the other person have the last word, set the other person up for the last word, or give a last word that the other person won't feel the need to respond to.

I can also add that during the last time I was unblocked on Wikipedia, I was involved in no arguments of this kind. Unlike Wikinews , Wikipedia articles have no time limits. That makes it much easier to say "No thanks" and go work on something else.

[I assume G here is Gryllida. I think you need to expand just in case of confusion, as there is another G in the conversation on AN, GoldenRing]

I want to give G some credit.